April 17, 2024 • 33 mins
Reporter Amy Chozick used her experiences covering HIllary Clinton on the campaign trail as the inspiration for a new show on Max called “The Girls on the Bus.” Part satire, part drama, the show follows four journalists covering a cadre of flawed presidential candidates. Amy joins us to talk about turning her observations from ten years of campaign reporting into a TV series. Plus, Caitlin Clark’s WNBA salary, Taylor Swift tries to make poetry cool, and Danielle and Simone ask: is it OK to drink breast milk? Later this week, we’re talking with an OB-GYN who’s going to help us debunk some women’s health misinformation. Have a question for her? Email us: hello@thebrightsidepodcast.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello Sunshine, Hey Pam.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Today on the bright Side, we're tagging along with the
Girls on the Bus. Journalists and best selling author Amy
Chosek is talking about the new TV series inspired by
her memoir and the power of seeing women in politics
on screen.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
It's Wednesday, April seventeenth. I'm Danielle Robe.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
And I'm Simone Boyce and this is the bright Side
from Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
All right, here's your morning drip. This one is for
our Swifties. Taylor Swift is teaming up with Spotify to
create an open air poetry library.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
It's for the release of her upcoming album, The Tortured
Poets Department, which is coming out this Friday, the nineteenth.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
That is going to take over our algorithms on Friday.
Yes it is.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
I actually really like this. I love poetry. You know,
you and I share a love for beautiful words. And
I think Taylor, if anybody has the ability to make
poetry quote unquote cool or bring it mainstream. The library
is going to be at the Grove in La on
April sixteenth, seventeenth, and eighteenth.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
But don't worry if you're not in La.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
All the surprises and hints that are going to be
there will also be available on her album countdown page.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
All right, so we all saw that Caitlin Clark is
going pro and that transition, well, it's proving that the
gender pay gap is still so real, especially for female athletes. Ugh.
Earlier this week, the Indiana Fever selected her first overall
in the WNBA draft. But it's honestly her paycheck that's
making headlines. So she signed a four year, three hundred
(01:35):
and thirty eight thousand dollars contract, which means that she's
making less than one hundred thousand dollars in her first
year and every year after that. So, just for comparison,
the number one pick in the twenty twenty three men's
draft was Victor Wambanyama and he signed a fifty five
million dollar contract, so twelve million for his rookie season.
(01:57):
We're talking about astronomical differences here, not even in the
same realm of comparison.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
The challenge is the inequality here is so foundational. Yes,
it's based on ticket sales, is what they say. But
what makes up ticket sales Players that are stars, and
what makes star players buy and from brands?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Time on TV?
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Think about how many hours people in sports television and
radio talk about Tom Brady versus Serena Williams, like the
gap is so real there, and so it makes this
whole thing very tricky.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Listen, this is a huge systemic issue. But the good
news is that Caitlin stands to make additional monies through
her name, image and likeness deals. She's probably going to
make millions from that. So hopefully this marks a turning
point for athletes like her.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
I hope so, but I think it's going to take
a little bit of time. I mean, this is why
Brittany Griner was playing in Russia. A lot of these
WNBA players have to go play overseas because they can't
sustain their life on WNBA salaries. I mean, Caitlin was
the number one pick and that's what she's making. Can
you imagine what the two hundred and something pick is making.
(03:05):
Like a lot of it is just not sustainable and
so similar to how we talk about the pay gap
in general, it just needs to be sped up.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Brands, this is on you. It is time to step up.
Make sure our girl Caitlin Clark stays paid. Okay, we
love to see Prada dressing her. That was such a
cool moment. Let's keep it up. Okay, folks, Okay.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Also in the world of sports, photos of Nike's new
women's Olympic track uniforms are going absolutely viral.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
And simone it's for all the wrong reasons.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Nike recently debuted its line of uniforms for athletes, and
one of the options for women's track and field immediately
sparked outrage. They were these unitard bikini line sort of
high wasted.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Numbers, extremely high.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I don't know how to explain it. They're like bikini bottoms.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
If you haven't seen it, look up an image of it.
But it's even more revealing than a bikini bottom. The
fabric sort of arches inward, like towards the belly button,
and then it like goes back out over the hip.
But it's such a severe cut that I can't imagine
how any athlete would be able to perform confidently and
comfortably in this.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah, it's it's revealing. And there is a side by
side of the men's fit and it's like a full
uniform onesie, and so people are just pissed.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
I'm pissed.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, I can't. I don't belong anywhere near a track,
and I'm pissed. I just think this is so insulting.
And Nike, you could have just put the men's uniform
side by side next to the women's uniform. You could
have made them the exact same. There's no reason why
the women have to be in this skimpy uniform.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Well, I just think about how I like to show
up to work and if I'm not in an outfit
that I feel comfortable in, I'm definitely not going to
do my best job. And so for these athletes who
have worked their entire lives to get to this moment,
they're then hit with this, it just seems so unnecessary.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Okay, I hope you're thirsty, Danielle, because this next story
is it's an interesting one that I've seen all over
TikTok and Instagram right now, and that is adults using
breast milk for their own health benefits. So we've seen
bodybuilders do it. They say that it helps them gain muscle.
There are lots of videos of people using breast milk
(05:24):
and even frozen breast milk as a face treatment or
a toner. And then just recently, Courtney Kardashian shared that
she quote pounded a glass of breast milk when she
started feeling sick. Because we know that breast milk has
a lot of immune boosting properties, especially for infants.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
So I don't know.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I think is still a little bit cloudy, but I'm
all for it, Like I why not, it's not going
to hurt you, especially like with Courtney Kardashian it's her
breast milk.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
It was controversial, people were mad at her.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I think people have strong opinions about breast milk in general,
about like sharing breast milk. Like I just saw a
video where a woman's sister was feeding her baby with
her own breast milk, and there are a lot of
strong opinions about that. But I think if we were
to look back throughout history, this probably wouldn't have been
(06:17):
that weird. I think we have a lot of weird
feelings about it. Now I have.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Zero weird feelings about it. There's tons of philanthropy programs
that are all about women donating breast milk because they
call it liquid gold for a reason. It has so
many healing properties. So I'm into this. I'm also the
type of person that would eat my own placenta. I
eat like brown bananas. I have, like things in my
(06:44):
fridge are definitely expired that I'll still eat. I grew
up like that, Like my mom would always be like
I'd be like, oh, the milk says it's three days old,
and she's like, oh, they put the wrong labels on there,
just being too careful. Yeah, I would totally. I'll drink
your breast milk. I'll drink my breast milk. I'm good
with anything.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
When I was breastfeeding my son, a friend came over
and she was like, can I have a glass of
breast milk? And she drank it right there on the spot.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
So she's still alive.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
All good, of course, it's like super juice in there Byby.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Did you have Michael try it?
Speaker 4 (07:16):
I think so. Yeah, I think I made him try it.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
I actually remember using a little bit of breast milk
on my face when I was dealing with like post
pregnancy acne, and I don't know that it actually helped,
but it's like, why not, why not try it?
Speaker 3 (07:29):
This story is not controversial to me. It's just breast milk.
It's like it's so natural and it's amazing that some
of us have the ability to make it.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yes, I Actually I also remember using it on my
kids whenever they had a cut or something, or I
would put it in the bathtub with them.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
It's great for skin.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I think just the fact that we're talking about this
is great because I would love to see more scientific
studies about the benefits of breast milk. I think there
are a lot more that we probably don't even understand yet.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
After the break, we're talking with political journalist and author
Amy Chosick about transforming her memoir into a TV show,
one that Simone and I are absolutely obsessed with. We
are so excited to talk with our next guest, journalist
(08:22):
and author Amy Chosick.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Now.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Amy covered politics at The New York Times and The
Wall Street Journal for many years. She's also the author
of the best selling book Chasing Hillary, which we loved
so It chronicles her experience following Hillary Clinton's twenty sixteen
presidential campaign.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
And since then, Amy has taken on a new role
as the co creator and executive producer of the MAC
series The Girls on the Bus. It's loosely based on
her book and follows four reporters as they cover a
cadre of flawed presidential candidates on the campaign trail. Amy,
We're so thrilled to have you on the bride side.
Welcome to the.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
Oh my god, I'm so excited to be here. Thanks guys.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Okay, Amy, we'll just dive right in. Although the Girls
on the Bus is inspired by your memoir, there's no Hillary,
there's no Trump in the show, which seems like a
very deliberate choice, right. Why did you decide to set
it in this fictional political landscape.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
Well, very early on, when I first met the one
of the producers, Greg Burlante, we decided it should be
a fictional world, no Hillary, no Trump. Partly then it
was very raw. It was like twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen.
I think nobody was in the mood to relive twenty sixteen.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
I definitely wasn't.
Speaker 5 (09:37):
And so, yeah, and so, for one, we wanted we
wanted to set it in a fictional world. We also
wanted the politics to really be the backdrop, and the friendship,
the female friendship that forms on the bus is kind
of the real story. It's a little bit like Friday
Night Lights. You don't have to like football to be
invested in those characters. So I think if you made
it reality, you'd be so focused on sort of the
(09:59):
politic it would attract a different audience, right, We've attract
political junkies, I think, and we were going for sort
of a broader audience that's interested in female friendship and
these relationships with the women. But the great thing about
who were playing in this fictional world is that we
explored really real themes. I think a lot of the
themes from my book are very resonant in the show,
just through these fictional characters.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
So we've been binging, Oh yeah, I love it. I'm obsessed.
For me, it's like the best show I've seen in
a really long time. It makes me so happy, and
it made me smile. I haven't smiled watching a show
in a long time like that. But you mentioned these
friendships and there's four main characters, there's four main women.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
Who did you.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Base these women off of? Because they are based off
of real characters?
Speaker 5 (10:42):
Right?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
There are all.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Composites, for sure, I mean definitely.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
You know, my journalistic heiro Nora Efron said everything is copy,
so you know, of course I pull different things from
real life, but they're all sort of composite characters. Julie
Plack and I who I co created this with early on,
wanted four very different types of women generationally. We wanted
them to be really different types of journalists. We wanted
them to have completely different world views. So we kind
of started there, and we thought the debates on the
(11:08):
bus are going to be much more interesting if they're
coming from all of these different perspectives. I mean, Grace
is the sort of veteran, the seasoned queen of the scoop,
and she's very much inspired by a generation of women
who mentored me and a lot of other political reporters
at the Times, Moreen Dowd, Jill Abramson, who was the
first female editor of the New York Times.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
And Andrea Mitchell.
Speaker 5 (11:28):
Andrea was on the bus with us every day, and
she was so kind and mentoring, and she's just like
slugging it out with us through Ohio with you know,
with the rest, with the kids. She's incredible, And I
think there was something very early on with these women
who are like tough as nails. They don't suffer fools,
they'll like cut a bitch for a scoop, but they're
so kind and generous, and we just didn't want to
(11:48):
fall into the trope of this generation women who like
knocks the ladder down, and I think Grace's character really
beautifully sort of ends up mentoring especially Lola.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
The young influencer.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
We keep bringing up Andrea Mitchell, so I just want
to share it for anybody who doesn't know. She's now
seventy seven years old and she was I think one
of the first, yeah, female political reporters.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
She's at NBC now and just kind of legendary.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
The dynamic with the influencer was so interesting to me,
particularly because I've always kind of had one foot in
digital one foot in traditional media, and I thought the
undertones of those relationships between journalism and influencers were so
well thought out and articulated.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
And also can I add the commentary on the tension
between old school journalism and traditional journalism and the future
of it.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
Where it's headed.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
Yeah, I mean we always wanted an influencer on the bus,
but she seemed a little like, really fictionalized when we
first started.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
Now I think it's very it feels very real.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
It feels like this is the spot when Sadie says
sponsored content the future of journalism, you know, and substack
that was something like we wouldn't have even put in
the script two years ago. That now feels like a
ton of people are getting their political news from podcasts,
influence TikTok, you know, And so yeah, Lola became even
more I think realistic, and I think those debates, you know,
your former journalists are erupting in newsrooms. I remember when
(13:08):
I started and there was like the esteemed veteran journalist saying,
we don't vote in elections. We cover like somebody could
find out your registered Democrat or Republican and think you're bias,
so we don't vote.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
And I was like, oh, I'm going to give up
my right to vote.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
You know.
Speaker 5 (13:21):
You know, I think my generation sort of started questioning that,
but the younger kids are even more so, like objectivity.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
What you know, I got into this to change the world.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Amy, one of the characters in the show, asked one
of the best questions I've ever heard from a journalist,
real or fake. She said to one of the political candidates,
how are you going to break our hearts? I just
love how human that question is. Was that a question
you've asked before?
Speaker 4 (13:45):
To be honest, I was a little embarrassed.
Speaker 5 (13:47):
You know, I very much worry about what my former
colleagues think, And I was like, is that like the
softest question ever? And I'm like, but actually, I love
that it resonated with you because that's how we feel, right, Like.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
We feel so like.
Speaker 5 (13:58):
I just remember when I went to Obama, was covering
Obama's rallies and a million people turned out in Saint Louis,
and it was like, this incredible thing, and you have
this impending dread. What's going to happen? How are they
going to take this guy down? Or what skeleton does
this woman have in her closet? Like, I feel like
we are so kind of accustomed to that now that
nobody can just exist.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
But isn't what you mentioned about worrying about how your
colleagues would have perceived that question, whether it was too soft.
That kind of gets to the disconnect between journalism today
and where the audience is. Yeah, it's it's not human enough, right,
It's like not getting to the humanity that people really
want to see in journalists and media today.
Speaker 5 (14:39):
I think, No, I love I love you that that
was your conclusion because that's kind of exactly what I
wanted to do. One of the big things I wanted
to do with the show is like the original Boys
on the Bus was really a repudiation of pack journalism.
He was criticizing the way politics was covered. And I
think that what we're doing with the show, in an
indirect way, is imagining, you know, if we covered politics differently,
(14:59):
would we have to politics?
Speaker 2 (15:01):
You know?
Speaker 4 (15:01):
And I think that's really like, that's a big question.
It is.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
It's not directly asked, but I think that's the question
that each girl is grappling with, right, And I think it,
you know, towards the end when they decide to work together,
like that's a very different way of covering politics. We
are all about the scoop and we're about throwing elbows
and I'm going to find out which staffer was fired
before you do. And it's like then you've got like
voters who are wait, how's this going to impact my life?
(15:25):
Or like was this a good candidate who just got
thrown out of the race for some you know, bullshit scandal.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
So I think that's what we're sort of imagining with this.
You really centered sisterhood in this show. And also I
was so heartened by the empathy between these characters. Because
they're so different, they don't have to have empathy for
each other. Yeah, they're across political aisles and ideologies, and
they work for these outlets that are enemies, sworn enemies.
(15:51):
So how did your found family on the campaign trail
inform the friendships that we see in the show?
Speaker 4 (15:56):
It definitely did, you know.
Speaker 5 (15:57):
And I think that the bus was like a great
vehicle for that, right because these are women I probably
normally I would have never like made friends with Andrea
Mitchell a normal life, you know, not because she's not lovely,
just because like, where would we even have met? And
but you're forced together on a bus, right, It's almost
like those early seasons.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
Of the real world. You know what happens when people
stop being.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
Polite because you're forced together. You're all staying in the
same mid range hotel rooms. Your life is not your own,
you know, your your personal life is a dumpster fire
because you're just giving giving it all up for the job.
And I think, you know, I've seen some criticism of
the show of like and what world would an influencer,
It would like a progressive influencer be friends with like
a conservative you know, black woman.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
And I'm like in.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
Our world, in the world I created, and I think
that's the the whole point. Yeah, And that's the privilege
of writing for television, right is we can imagine the
world as we want it to be, not as it is.
And I think that that's something that was, you know,
both in my own life being friends with women I
never would have normally met, but also just being able
to imagine a world where they can see each other
(16:58):
as humans.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
This is one scene that I cannot get out of
my mind. And one of the characters is having a
disagreement with her daughter because she wants her mom to
pay more attention to her and not be so focused
on work. And the mom says, my work is the first.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Line in my obituary. You, my dear, are the.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Last oh I got Like, I had so many emotions.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
It was hard to watch, honestly.
Speaker 5 (17:22):
Well, I think partly because Carla is so incredible she
brings such empathy to that scene, but definitely one of
the look we all read the whole Writer's Room, you know,
read The Boys on the Bus. This is about the
men covering the nineteen seventy three McGovern campaign.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
The only women in that.
Speaker 5 (17:35):
Book are like waiting at home to welcome their great
men home from their great job on the campaign trail,
doing important work.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
They've got the meat loaf in the oven.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
I don't think any of those men's children were like,
why the hell weren't you there for my ballet reside.
I don't think any of those men had to answer
for putting their jobs first, right, And so what I mean?
I love the obituary line, but I also just love
that Grace says I was out making the money, you know,
And it's like, I don't think any man has to
answer for that. In every character, we're sort of grappling
(18:04):
with these things that women have to face that I
don't think the previous generation ever had to answer for.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
It's also just honest. I worked with a lot of
women like that, and I saw a lot of women
like that in my field. So it's just nice to
have an honest portrayal of ambitious women. Okay, Amy, there's
a storyline about a female reporter navigating a tricky romantic
relationship with a press secretary, and that kind of conflict
adventures is something that we've seen a lot in stories
(18:33):
about female journalists.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
But I know that there's an intention behind it. So
what was it? Well, I would say I don't think
we've seen exactly this.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
I think the trope that myself and other female journalists
do not appreciate in film and TV is the female
journalist is sleeping with a source to get information, like, right,
she would have never gotten that scoop on her own.
She had to flash her tits that sleep with the guy,
Like it's always that. So it's something that was really
important to me. I sit down, you know, to brainstorm
this show, and my partners are like, but they're like.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
She has to have sex with someone, you know, it's
a TV show.
Speaker 5 (19:05):
Like they kept they kept pitching people what about this this,
And I was like, no, no, she could never do that.
It's a complicated romantic entanglement, which is something we see
in Washington all the time because as in Hollywood, it's
like an incestuous one industry town and who are you
gonna who.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Are you gonna meet?
Speaker 5 (19:19):
Right? You know the fact that we've gotten some criticism
for Sadie's choice, but I have never heard one person
say that press secretary really should have told her he
was still employed. Like, no one's ever criticized the male
quote unquote source or press secretary. No, I've not seen
one thing saying that guy he should have known. That
was a conflict that was about not one. I mean,
there was one article that called Sadie slut, and I
(19:42):
was like, lady hooked up with her ex boyfriend when
she thought he was unemployed, you know. So it's been
very interesting to see the reaction to that and I
and I definitely agree. I definitely, you know, encourage debate,
and I understand not everybody will like that choice that
we made, but I do think it's realistic in Washington
that you have like complicated romantic entanglements, and I think
we see Sadie pay very dearly for that in a
(20:05):
way that I'm not sure you would see a man
have to answer for. And that was what we wanted
to do.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
You're really reading the reactions to the show and the reviews,
You're taking it all in.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
I really shouldn't. I'm starting to block. I'm starting to block.
But what do you think drives that? Are you just
curious about what people say about it or what is it?
I'm just like a masochist.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Let's just say no, I'm curious.
Speaker 5 (20:27):
I mean, you put something out in the world and
you want to know how it's being received. And I
think since this is the first TV project, you know,
my partners are.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Like, I never read what are you doing?
Speaker 5 (20:37):
I never read any of that, you know, but I
think this is from I read the early ones. I'm
not really reading them anymore, but yeah, I was curious.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
I mean, you're also making a lot of cultural commentary
on the show, so you're probably a cultural critic. You're
interested in hearing what the conversation is.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Around that better than a masochist.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
I feel I.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Feel a little enchanted by politics sometimes to this day.
And you've covered several presidential campaigns and momentous first for
our country. So former President Barack Obama, who was obviously
the first black president, both of Hillary Clinton's campaigns to
try to become the first female president.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
And I'm so curious about your personal.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Experience in witnessing these historical moments. Were you enchanted by
I mean, like Obama's hope Okay, it was all about hope.
The country was so riled up and excited, and Hillary
everyone was, regardless of her politics, excited about the possibility
there were you enchanted by it?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
On the bus?
Speaker 5 (21:38):
Well, I love that you're still enchanted because I feel
like most of the country isn't and we should be.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Right.
Speaker 5 (21:43):
We should be even if it's maybe not this election,
there's still the future, right, But no, I mean it's
a mix, right. I had been a foreign correspondent in
Japan before my editor, the Asia Bureau chief, became the
Washington Bureau chief, and said, how'd you like to go
to Iowa.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
And cover Hillary Clinton?
Speaker 5 (21:58):
So like, I hardly knew this was too thousand and seven.
I hardly knew who Obama was. I had no idea
what a caucus was. I'm like, America doesn't really know
what a.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Caucus is either. It's fine, but we still don't buy.
We still don't.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
At one point I went to a Hillary rally when
my first and I stood up and she said something
great and everybody cheered, and I stood up and cheered,
and all the press were like.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
What are you doing? Sit down? We don't do that here,
And so it's like going inspired.
Speaker 5 (22:21):
I was inspired, And then I realized that we have
to ceed our ability to be inspired as journalists, right,
we have to seed our ability to get you know,
so excited and wrapped up in candidates and certainly covering
Obama's two thousand and eight campaign when you felt this
like ground swell of enthusiasm and part of you was like, oh,
that looks amazing, and I'm sitting in the press, you know,
pin unable to react.
Speaker 4 (22:42):
To any of it.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
And then you know, but certainly there were moments in
my career where it's impossible not to feel the gravity
of the moment. Like in two thousand and eight, I'm
with Obama when the results are coming in, we ride
over to the in the motorcade to Grant Park. I'm
like behind backstage when he's giving his acceptance speech to
become the first black president. It's like, you have this
(23:04):
is really the objectivity debate. It's like are you human?
Like are you getting the chills in this moment? Because
this is incredible? You know, it's incredible to witness history, right,
that's the luxury of being a journalist. We don't get
paid a lot, you know, but we get to witness history.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
I've always thought of journalists, particularly print journalists, as like
first draft historians, and so to be witnessing all that,
I don't know, it just it seems like an incredible experience.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
You must have.
Speaker 5 (23:29):
It is you're like so exhausted, and there's like so
much whining. You know, it's like, what am we gotta
be fed? I need my marriout points, So like there's
all this whiny, Like there's tea. You're so exhausting, I've
and slept in days. Your editors are asking you for
like fifteen different stories and can you have a feed?
And I need some color and you can get some
voter voices, and it's like you really have to stop
(23:49):
and be like this is fucking cool, Like this is amazing,
this is a privilege.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Stay with us. We're back. I'm here with Amy Chosick.
You covered Hillary's twenty sixteen campaign, and you've seen several
women enter presidential races since then. We now even have
a female vice president. How do you think we as
a group look at women in power right now in
(24:17):
twenty twenty four?
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Has it changed?
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Sadly, I don't think it's changed that much.
Speaker 5 (24:22):
And it's really interesting because we started writing this show,
you know a few years ago, and we kept kind
of adjusting it as the world change. And the one
big thing that would have like drastically impacted the show
is well, we have a woman president. You know, it's like, Nope,
that doesn't look like it's going to happen. We're fine,
We're good. A couple things. One thing is I do
think we've evolved a little bit past the Hillary era
(24:43):
and that we've seen a lot of different women run
for president, whether that's all the women that ran in
twenty twenty on the Democratic side or even NICKI Haley.
I think that our only template for a powerful woman
was Hillary, who was very you know, very much qualified
on her own but also seen in the shadow of
her husban. And so we have seen a lot of
women from a lot of different templates that do not
(25:04):
involve you know, rising to fame with being a wife.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
Right, So I think I think.
Speaker 5 (25:09):
That is that has been something that's different and evolved
and positive. Right, We've seen multiple women on the campaigns,
on the debate stage. I remember when Hillary was running
and it was like twenty fifteen and people were talking about, well,
is Elizabeth Warrengan a run, and well, there can't be
two women on the stage and it's going to be
a catfight.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
You know.
Speaker 5 (25:25):
There was just like nobody could even perceive of how
two women would debate each other. So like, even seeing
multiple women on the debate stage in twenty twenty, I
think was really positive. I mean, one of the things
our show does is like is I think it's one
of the first shows to imagine female candidates that very
much aren't in the Hillary template. Right. And of course
there's themes that I learned from from covering Hillary that
(25:50):
work in heavily to the show. But like even the wardrobe,
I was just gonna.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Say, the aesthetic, right, because she had the hair and
the pants suit and it became so such a thing
for women.
Speaker 5 (26:01):
Yeah, So there are things like that that we just
couldn't We can't even envision a woman in power who's
like not dressed like that, and that is essentially that
pants suit look was essentially trying to emulate a man.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Right.
Speaker 5 (26:11):
So I think we've evolved a little, but sadly not
as much as I'd hoped.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
There's this scene where Felicity like burns her brae, which to.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Me felt like the only moment where I was like,
this would never happen.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Yeah, But to that point, do you feel like writing
in these fictional characters, women running for president or in
any sort of power position that are doing things that
seem unbelievable. Now are moving then the narrative forward for
actual candidates to sort of start to step into things
(26:49):
that we haven't seen before.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
I hope.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
So. I mean, I think at its best, TV can
influence culture. BRA burning actually comes from a real situation.
In two thousand and eight, I was with Hillary New
Hampshire and she was doing a rally and all these
guys stood up and started chanting, iron my shirt, Iron
my shirt. I guess it's like this sexist chant and
and she just kind of kept pressing, you know, she
(27:13):
just pressed on with her pole. She just ignored them
and pressed on. And so in my head, I was like,
what if she really leaned into that? What if she
called them out? What if she took off her shirt
and said you fucking hired it? But that was one
of those scenarios were like, instead of creating reality in
the show, create your wish, what do you wish would
have happened? And so like when Felicity like leans into
(27:33):
it and takes off her bra, it's like I could
actually see that.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
You know, they call it the bra bump. She gets
a bump of the poles.
Speaker 5 (27:38):
You know what happens when you actually respond the way
you know you wish you could, that you never really could.
And then the other thing is, like, you know, the
Joanna Gleeson plays Caroline Bennett the front Runner and the Pilot,
and then she flames out, And what I love about
her is that she flames out in her own sex scambal,
not her husband's sex scamble. You know.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
So I agree that, Like, so j wait, like this
threesome cult thing, like it's.
Speaker 5 (28:04):
Totally random, but like it was just fun to envision
of like a boomer woman flaming out because of her
own sex scandal.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
We deserve sex scandals too.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
So for anyone listening who doesn't realize this, the fact
that Amy made the move from reporting to screenwriting as
a career jump is really remarkable because so many journalists
dream of doing that. So I want to talk about
that pivot for a moment. How did that pivot test you?
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (28:30):
God, it definitely did. I mean, I feel like this
has been well for.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
One I don't want to I don't want to give.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
You too long of a response. But I was always
felt like a creative writer. I studied poetry in college.
I like moved to New York no job, no apartment.
I had a stack of clips in the daily text
and thinking I could be a journalist, but like, how
am I going to support myself as a poet. I
didn't have trust fund, you know, no one paying my rent.
So I you know, I got a job, as I
got a tempted a bunch of magazines. I eventually got
(28:56):
a job as the news assistant on the foreign desk
at the Wall Street Journal, and I just fell in
love with journalism.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
I did that for a really long time.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
But when I wrote my book and I got to
kind of write my own voice versus newspaper voice, it
just reminded me that, like, I really want to be
a creative writer. So in a way, transitioning to screenwriting
felt like my soul had come alive. Like I could
be like creative again. I could play with my imaginary friends.
So I say, but yeah, it was like it was
a real endurance. It's like an endurance sport. I mean,
(29:26):
this has taken five years and three networks, you know.
It was it was so many rewrites, rewriting the scripts
until you think you can't possibly rewrite anymore, and just
continuing to find joy. And you know, surprise in these
characters we created, even when you have so many rounds
of notes and so many challenges. So it's not it
(29:49):
wasn't an easy thing. But I've really really loved it.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Was it worth it?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
It was?
Speaker 5 (29:53):
It was worth it. Yes, it was worth it to
put this. I'm really proud of what we put out
in the world. I mean, to your point we were
talking earlier, is like that we got to envision this
world as we as we wish it would be.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Yeah, I think it was. I think it was worth it.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
I moved my whole I relocated my whole family to
Los Angeles.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
My husband's Irish.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
He still thinks it's relentlessly sunny here big swings.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
To move your whole family's.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Bag, Yeah, I feel like you have to go like
all in, you know. But it was hard.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
It was hard to leave the New York Times too,
and my whole kind of identity was wrapped up in
being a Times reporter.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yeah. Have you found a new placeholder for that identity,
like a new title or are you good with sort
of the undefined role?
Speaker 4 (30:37):
It's interesting.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
I feel like here I just live much more of
a writer's life, you know, I don't necessarily need to
be like define in a way. I felt like I
did there, maybe because New York is just New York,
or or because you're always going into rooms and be
like I'm with the New York Times, you know, and
I feel like here, I just like really enjoy, you know,
playing with my imaginary friends and moving words on the page.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
And Amy, Yeah, this must be so liberating for you
as a creative to be able to live in this playground.
I mean, coming from the newspaper world, from journalism where
you're held to such tight and high standards, You're free now.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
It was.
Speaker 5 (31:17):
There were definitely scenes that were really cathartic. There's a
scene at the end when Sadie has a conversation with
Felicity Walker that is like a conversation that I've had
in my head for eight years. I have to say
I was really a peak life experience to be able
to turn something that was painful into art. And I
know it's make a TV, but I'm still gonna call
(31:37):
it art man, And that was really cathartic. It was, Amy,
Thank you so much, so fun to talk to you,
and I'm so thrilled of you.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Like the show.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
We love it heay.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Amy Chosick is a journalist, screenwriter, and creator of the
new TV series The Girls on the Bus. It's streaming
now on Max, so catch the season finale on May nine.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
I promise you you won't regret it.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Hopefully the listeners can feel the energy in the room
because it was really electric.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Well, it's so fun to sit with another journalist, right, Like,
we get into the x's and o's and shared experiences
and differences.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
It's fun.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
But I could tell that you are really interested in
people's transitions. And I like that question you asked her
at the end about was it all worth it?
Speaker 4 (32:32):
Totally?
Speaker 2 (32:32):
And I gained a lot from hearing Amy talk about
hers I love that she did say, yes, this pivot
was worth it. In the end, you can tell that
she just has this renewed purpose now that she's on
this different career path. She said that her soul really
came alive becoming a screenwriter and transitioning out of journalism.
(32:52):
And also what she's doing is really powerful. She is
creating the world that she wants to see through her art.
Mm hmmm, that's it for today's show, Folks. Tomorrow, comedian
Mary Beth Baron is here. She's redefining comedy on her
own terms, and she shared some of her most provoking thoughts.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Plus, we're asking for a friend that's right. We want
to know your questions. Do you have a friendship situation
you need a little extra guidance with Send us a
voice note to Hello at the brightsidepodcast dot com and
one of our bright Side busties is gonna help you out.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Listen and follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can
find me simone Voice on Instagram and TikTok and.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
I'm Danielle Robe at Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
That's ro Bay.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
We'll see you back here tomorrow. Keep looking on the
bright side.
Hello Sunshine, Hey Pam.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Today on the bright Side, we're tagging along with the
Girls on the Bus. Journalists and best selling author Amy
Chosek is talking about the new TV series inspired by
her memoir and the power of seeing women in politics
on screen.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
It's Wednesday, April seventeenth. I'm Danielle Robe.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
And I'm Simone Boyce and this is the bright Side
from Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
All right, here's your morning drip. This one is for
our Swifties. Taylor Swift is teaming up with Spotify to
create an open air poetry library.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
It's for the release of her upcoming album, The Tortured
Poets Department, which is coming out this Friday, the nineteenth.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
That is going to take over our algorithms on Friday.
Yes it is.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
I actually really like this. I love poetry. You know,
you and I share a love for beautiful words. And
I think Taylor, if anybody has the ability to make
poetry quote unquote cool or bring it mainstream. The library
is going to be at the Grove in La on
April sixteenth, seventeenth, and eighteenth.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
But don't worry if you're not in La.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
All the surprises and hints that are going to be
there will also be available on her album countdown page.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
All right, so we all saw that Caitlin Clark is
going pro and that transition, well, it's proving that the
gender pay gap is still so real, especially for female athletes. Ugh.
Earlier this week, the Indiana Fever selected her first overall
in the WNBA draft. But it's honestly her paycheck that's
making headlines. So she signed a four year, three hundred
(01:35):
and thirty eight thousand dollars contract, which means that she's
making less than one hundred thousand dollars in her first
year and every year after that. So, just for comparison,
the number one pick in the twenty twenty three men's
draft was Victor Wambanyama and he signed a fifty five
million dollar contract, so twelve million for his rookie season.
(01:57):
We're talking about astronomical differences here, not even in the
same realm of comparison.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
The challenge is the inequality here is so foundational. Yes,
it's based on ticket sales, is what they say. But
what makes up ticket sales Players that are stars, and
what makes star players buy and from brands?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Time on TV?
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Think about how many hours people in sports television and
radio talk about Tom Brady versus Serena Williams, like the
gap is so real there, and so it makes this
whole thing very tricky.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Listen, this is a huge systemic issue. But the good
news is that Caitlin stands to make additional monies through
her name, image and likeness deals. She's probably going to
make millions from that. So hopefully this marks a turning
point for athletes like her.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
I hope so, but I think it's going to take
a little bit of time. I mean, this is why
Brittany Griner was playing in Russia. A lot of these
WNBA players have to go play overseas because they can't
sustain their life on WNBA salaries. I mean, Caitlin was
the number one pick and that's what she's making. Can
you imagine what the two hundred and something pick is making.
(03:05):
Like a lot of it is just not sustainable and
so similar to how we talk about the pay gap
in general, it just needs to be sped up.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Brands, this is on you. It is time to step up.
Make sure our girl Caitlin Clark stays paid. Okay, we
love to see Prada dressing her. That was such a
cool moment. Let's keep it up. Okay, folks, Okay.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Also in the world of sports, photos of Nike's new
women's Olympic track uniforms are going absolutely viral.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
And simone it's for all the wrong reasons.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Nike recently debuted its line of uniforms for athletes, and
one of the options for women's track and field immediately
sparked outrage. They were these unitard bikini line sort of
high wasted.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Numbers, extremely high.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I don't know how to explain it. They're like bikini bottoms.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
If you haven't seen it, look up an image of it.
But it's even more revealing than a bikini bottom. The
fabric sort of arches inward, like towards the belly button,
and then it like goes back out over the hip.
But it's such a severe cut that I can't imagine
how any athlete would be able to perform confidently and
comfortably in this.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah, it's it's revealing. And there is a side by
side of the men's fit and it's like a full
uniform onesie, and so people are just pissed.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
I'm pissed.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, I can't. I don't belong anywhere near a track,
and I'm pissed. I just think this is so insulting.
And Nike, you could have just put the men's uniform
side by side next to the women's uniform. You could
have made them the exact same. There's no reason why
the women have to be in this skimpy uniform.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Well, I just think about how I like to show
up to work and if I'm not in an outfit
that I feel comfortable in, I'm definitely not going to
do my best job. And so for these athletes who
have worked their entire lives to get to this moment,
they're then hit with this, it just seems so unnecessary.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Okay, I hope you're thirsty, Danielle, because this next story
is it's an interesting one that I've seen all over
TikTok and Instagram right now, and that is adults using
breast milk for their own health benefits. So we've seen
bodybuilders do it. They say that it helps them gain muscle.
There are lots of videos of people using breast milk
(05:24):
and even frozen breast milk as a face treatment or
a toner. And then just recently, Courtney Kardashian shared that
she quote pounded a glass of breast milk when she
started feeling sick. Because we know that breast milk has
a lot of immune boosting properties, especially for infants.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
So I don't know.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I think is still a little bit cloudy, but I'm
all for it, Like I why not, it's not going
to hurt you, especially like with Courtney Kardashian it's her
breast milk.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
It was controversial, people were mad at her.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I think people have strong opinions about breast milk in general,
about like sharing breast milk. Like I just saw a
video where a woman's sister was feeding her baby with
her own breast milk, and there are a lot of
strong opinions about that. But I think if we were
to look back throughout history, this probably wouldn't have been
(06:17):
that weird. I think we have a lot of weird
feelings about it. Now I have.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Zero weird feelings about it. There's tons of philanthropy programs
that are all about women donating breast milk because they
call it liquid gold for a reason. It has so
many healing properties. So I'm into this. I'm also the
type of person that would eat my own placenta. I
eat like brown bananas. I have, like things in my
(06:44):
fridge are definitely expired that I'll still eat. I grew
up like that, Like my mom would always be like
I'd be like, oh, the milk says it's three days old,
and she's like, oh, they put the wrong labels on there,
just being too careful. Yeah, I would totally. I'll drink
your breast milk. I'll drink my breast milk. I'm good
with anything.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
When I was breastfeeding my son, a friend came over
and she was like, can I have a glass of
breast milk? And she drank it right there on the spot.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
So she's still alive.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
All good, of course, it's like super juice in there Byby.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Did you have Michael try it?
Speaker 4 (07:16):
I think so. Yeah, I think I made him try it.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
I actually remember using a little bit of breast milk
on my face when I was dealing with like post
pregnancy acne, and I don't know that it actually helped,
but it's like, why not, why not try it?
Speaker 3 (07:29):
This story is not controversial to me. It's just breast milk.
It's like it's so natural and it's amazing that some
of us have the ability to make it.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yes, I Actually I also remember using it on my
kids whenever they had a cut or something, or I
would put it in the bathtub with them.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
It's great for skin.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I think just the fact that we're talking about this
is great because I would love to see more scientific
studies about the benefits of breast milk. I think there
are a lot more that we probably don't even understand yet.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
After the break, we're talking with political journalist and author
Amy Chosick about transforming her memoir into a TV show,
one that Simone and I are absolutely obsessed with. We
are so excited to talk with our next guest, journalist
(08:22):
and author Amy Chosick.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
Now.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Amy covered politics at The New York Times and The
Wall Street Journal for many years. She's also the author
of the best selling book Chasing Hillary, which we loved
so It chronicles her experience following Hillary Clinton's twenty sixteen
presidential campaign.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
And since then, Amy has taken on a new role
as the co creator and executive producer of the MAC
series The Girls on the Bus. It's loosely based on
her book and follows four reporters as they cover a
cadre of flawed presidential candidates on the campaign trail. Amy,
We're so thrilled to have you on the bride side.
Welcome to the.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
Oh my god, I'm so excited to be here. Thanks guys.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Okay, Amy, we'll just dive right in. Although the Girls
on the Bus is inspired by your memoir, there's no Hillary,
there's no Trump in the show, which seems like a
very deliberate choice, right. Why did you decide to set
it in this fictional political landscape.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
Well, very early on, when I first met the one
of the producers, Greg Burlante, we decided it should be
a fictional world, no Hillary, no Trump. Partly then it
was very raw. It was like twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen.
I think nobody was in the mood to relive twenty sixteen.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
I definitely wasn't.
Speaker 5 (09:37):
And so, yeah, and so, for one, we wanted we
wanted to set it in a fictional world. We also
wanted the politics to really be the backdrop, and the friendship,
the female friendship that forms on the bus is kind
of the real story. It's a little bit like Friday
Night Lights. You don't have to like football to be
invested in those characters. So I think if you made
it reality, you'd be so focused on sort of the
(09:59):
politic it would attract a different audience, right, We've attract
political junkies, I think, and we were going for sort
of a broader audience that's interested in female friendship and
these relationships with the women. But the great thing about
who were playing in this fictional world is that we
explored really real themes. I think a lot of the
themes from my book are very resonant in the show,
just through these fictional characters.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
So we've been binging, Oh yeah, I love it. I'm obsessed.
For me, it's like the best show I've seen in
a really long time. It makes me so happy, and
it made me smile. I haven't smiled watching a show
in a long time like that. But you mentioned these
friendships and there's four main characters, there's four main women.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
Who did you.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Base these women off of? Because they are based off
of real characters?
Speaker 5 (10:42):
Right?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
There are all.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Composites, for sure, I mean definitely.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
You know, my journalistic heiro Nora Efron said everything is copy,
so you know, of course I pull different things from
real life, but they're all sort of composite characters. Julie
Plack and I who I co created this with early on,
wanted four very different types of women generationally. We wanted
them to be really different types of journalists. We wanted
them to have completely different world views. So we kind
of started there, and we thought the debates on the
(11:08):
bus are going to be much more interesting if they're
coming from all of these different perspectives. I mean, Grace
is the sort of veteran, the seasoned queen of the scoop,
and she's very much inspired by a generation of women
who mentored me and a lot of other political reporters
at the Times, Moreen Dowd, Jill Abramson, who was the
first female editor of the New York Times.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
And Andrea Mitchell.
Speaker 5 (11:28):
Andrea was on the bus with us every day, and
she was so kind and mentoring, and she's just like
slugging it out with us through Ohio with you know,
with the rest, with the kids. She's incredible, And I
think there was something very early on with these women
who are like tough as nails. They don't suffer fools,
they'll like cut a bitch for a scoop, but they're
so kind and generous, and we just didn't want to
(11:48):
fall into the trope of this generation women who like
knocks the ladder down, and I think Grace's character really
beautifully sort of ends up mentoring especially Lola.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
The young influencer.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
We keep bringing up Andrea Mitchell, so I just want
to share it for anybody who doesn't know. She's now
seventy seven years old and she was I think one
of the first, yeah, female political reporters.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
She's at NBC now and just kind of legendary.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
The dynamic with the influencer was so interesting to me,
particularly because I've always kind of had one foot in
digital one foot in traditional media, and I thought the
undertones of those relationships between journalism and influencers were so
well thought out and articulated.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
And also can I add the commentary on the tension
between old school journalism and traditional journalism and the future
of it.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
Where it's headed.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
Yeah, I mean we always wanted an influencer on the bus,
but she seemed a little like, really fictionalized when we
first started.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
Now I think it's very it feels very real.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
It feels like this is the spot when Sadie says
sponsored content the future of journalism, you know, and substack
that was something like we wouldn't have even put in
the script two years ago. That now feels like a
ton of people are getting their political news from podcasts,
influence TikTok, you know, And so yeah, Lola became even
more I think realistic, and I think those debates, you know,
your former journalists are erupting in newsrooms. I remember when
(13:08):
I started and there was like the esteemed veteran journalist saying,
we don't vote in elections. We cover like somebody could
find out your registered Democrat or Republican and think you're bias,
so we don't vote.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
And I was like, oh, I'm going to give up
my right to vote.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
You know.
Speaker 5 (13:21):
You know, I think my generation sort of started questioning that,
but the younger kids are even more so, like objectivity.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
What you know, I got into this to change the world.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Amy, one of the characters in the show, asked one
of the best questions I've ever heard from a journalist,
real or fake. She said to one of the political candidates,
how are you going to break our hearts? I just
love how human that question is. Was that a question
you've asked before?
Speaker 4 (13:45):
To be honest, I was a little embarrassed.
Speaker 5 (13:47):
You know, I very much worry about what my former
colleagues think, And I was like, is that like the
softest question ever? And I'm like, but actually, I love
that it resonated with you because that's how we feel, right, Like.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
We feel so like.
Speaker 5 (13:58):
I just remember when I went to Obama, was covering
Obama's rallies and a million people turned out in Saint Louis,
and it was like, this incredible thing, and you have
this impending dread. What's going to happen? How are they
going to take this guy down? Or what skeleton does
this woman have in her closet? Like, I feel like
we are so kind of accustomed to that now that
nobody can just exist.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
But isn't what you mentioned about worrying about how your
colleagues would have perceived that question, whether it was too soft.
That kind of gets to the disconnect between journalism today
and where the audience is. Yeah, it's it's not human enough, right,
It's like not getting to the humanity that people really
want to see in journalists and media today.
Speaker 5 (14:39):
I think, No, I love I love you that that
was your conclusion because that's kind of exactly what I
wanted to do. One of the big things I wanted
to do with the show is like the original Boys
on the Bus was really a repudiation of pack journalism.
He was criticizing the way politics was covered. And I
think that what we're doing with the show, in an
indirect way, is imagining, you know, if we covered politics differently,
(14:59):
would we have to politics?
Speaker 2 (15:01):
You know?
Speaker 4 (15:01):
And I think that's really like, that's a big question.
It is.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
It's not directly asked, but I think that's the question
that each girl is grappling with, right, And I think it,
you know, towards the end when they decide to work together,
like that's a very different way of covering politics. We
are all about the scoop and we're about throwing elbows
and I'm going to find out which staffer was fired
before you do. And it's like then you've got like
voters who are wait, how's this going to impact my life?
(15:25):
Or like was this a good candidate who just got
thrown out of the race for some you know, bullshit scandal.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
So I think that's what we're sort of imagining with this.
You really centered sisterhood in this show. And also I
was so heartened by the empathy between these characters. Because
they're so different, they don't have to have empathy for
each other. Yeah, they're across political aisles and ideologies, and
they work for these outlets that are enemies, sworn enemies.
(15:51):
So how did your found family on the campaign trail
inform the friendships that we see in the show?
Speaker 4 (15:56):
It definitely did, you know.
Speaker 5 (15:57):
And I think that the bus was like a great
vehicle for that, right because these are women I probably
normally I would have never like made friends with Andrea
Mitchell a normal life, you know, not because she's not lovely,
just because like, where would we even have met? And
but you're forced together on a bus, right, It's almost
like those early seasons.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
Of the real world. You know what happens when people
stop being.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
Polite because you're forced together. You're all staying in the
same mid range hotel rooms. Your life is not your own,
you know, your your personal life is a dumpster fire
because you're just giving giving it all up for the job.
And I think, you know, I've seen some criticism of
the show of like and what world would an influencer,
It would like a progressive influencer be friends with like
a conservative you know, black woman.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
And I'm like in.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
Our world, in the world I created, and I think
that's the the whole point. Yeah, And that's the privilege
of writing for television, right is we can imagine the
world as we want it to be, not as it is.
And I think that that's something that was, you know,
both in my own life being friends with women I
never would have normally met, but also just being able
to imagine a world where they can see each other
(16:58):
as humans.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
This is one scene that I cannot get out of
my mind. And one of the characters is having a
disagreement with her daughter because she wants her mom to
pay more attention to her and not be so focused
on work. And the mom says, my work is the first.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Line in my obituary. You, my dear, are the.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Last oh I got Like, I had so many emotions.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
It was hard to watch, honestly.
Speaker 5 (17:22):
Well, I think partly because Carla is so incredible she
brings such empathy to that scene, but definitely one of
the look we all read the whole Writer's Room, you know,
read The Boys on the Bus. This is about the
men covering the nineteen seventy three McGovern campaign.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
The only women in that.
Speaker 5 (17:35):
Book are like waiting at home to welcome their great
men home from their great job on the campaign trail,
doing important work.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
They've got the meat loaf in the oven.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
I don't think any of those men's children were like,
why the hell weren't you there for my ballet reside.
I don't think any of those men had to answer
for putting their jobs first, right, And so what I mean?
I love the obituary line, but I also just love
that Grace says I was out making the money, you know,
And it's like, I don't think any man has to
answer for that. In every character, we're sort of grappling
(18:04):
with these things that women have to face that I
don't think the previous generation ever had to answer for.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
It's also just honest. I worked with a lot of
women like that, and I saw a lot of women
like that in my field. So it's just nice to
have an honest portrayal of ambitious women. Okay, Amy, there's
a storyline about a female reporter navigating a tricky romantic
relationship with a press secretary, and that kind of conflict
adventures is something that we've seen a lot in stories
(18:33):
about female journalists.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
But I know that there's an intention behind it. So
what was it? Well, I would say I don't think
we've seen exactly this.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
I think the trope that myself and other female journalists
do not appreciate in film and TV is the female
journalist is sleeping with a source to get information, like, right,
she would have never gotten that scoop on her own.
She had to flash her tits that sleep with the guy,
Like it's always that. So it's something that was really
important to me. I sit down, you know, to brainstorm
this show, and my partners are like, but they're like.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
She has to have sex with someone, you know, it's
a TV show.
Speaker 5 (19:05):
Like they kept they kept pitching people what about this this,
And I was like, no, no, she could never do that.
It's a complicated romantic entanglement, which is something we see
in Washington all the time because as in Hollywood, it's
like an incestuous one industry town and who are you
gonna who.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Are you gonna meet?
Speaker 5 (19:19):
Right? You know the fact that we've gotten some criticism
for Sadie's choice, but I have never heard one person
say that press secretary really should have told her he
was still employed. Like, no one's ever criticized the male
quote unquote source or press secretary. No, I've not seen
one thing saying that guy he should have known. That
was a conflict that was about not one. I mean,
there was one article that called Sadie slut, and I
(19:42):
was like, lady hooked up with her ex boyfriend when
she thought he was unemployed, you know. So it's been
very interesting to see the reaction to that and I
and I definitely agree. I definitely, you know, encourage debate,
and I understand not everybody will like that choice that
we made, but I do think it's realistic in Washington
that you have like complicated romantic entanglements, and I think
we see Sadie pay very dearly for that in a
(20:05):
way that I'm not sure you would see a man
have to answer for. And that was what we wanted
to do.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
You're really reading the reactions to the show and the reviews,
You're taking it all in.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
I really shouldn't. I'm starting to block. I'm starting to block.
But what do you think drives that? Are you just
curious about what people say about it or what is it?
I'm just like a masochist.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Let's just say no, I'm curious.
Speaker 5 (20:27):
I mean, you put something out in the world and
you want to know how it's being received. And I
think since this is the first TV project, you know,
my partners are.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
Like, I never read what are you doing?
Speaker 5 (20:37):
I never read any of that, you know, but I
think this is from I read the early ones. I'm
not really reading them anymore, but yeah, I was curious.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
I mean, you're also making a lot of cultural commentary
on the show, so you're probably a cultural critic. You're
interested in hearing what the conversation is.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Around that better than a masochist.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
I feel I.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Feel a little enchanted by politics sometimes to this day.
And you've covered several presidential campaigns and momentous first for
our country. So former President Barack Obama, who was obviously
the first black president, both of Hillary Clinton's campaigns to
try to become the first female president.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
And I'm so curious about your personal.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Experience in witnessing these historical moments. Were you enchanted by
I mean, like Obama's hope Okay, it was all about hope.
The country was so riled up and excited, and Hillary
everyone was, regardless of her politics, excited about the possibility
there were you enchanted by it?
Speaker 1 (21:37):
On the bus?
Speaker 5 (21:38):
Well, I love that you're still enchanted because I feel
like most of the country isn't and we should be.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Right.
Speaker 5 (21:43):
We should be even if it's maybe not this election,
there's still the future, right, But no, I mean it's
a mix, right. I had been a foreign correspondent in
Japan before my editor, the Asia Bureau chief, became the
Washington Bureau chief, and said, how'd you like to go
to Iowa.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
And cover Hillary Clinton?
Speaker 5 (21:58):
So like, I hardly knew this was too thousand and seven.
I hardly knew who Obama was. I had no idea
what a caucus was. I'm like, America doesn't really know
what a.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Caucus is either. It's fine, but we still don't buy.
We still don't.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
At one point I went to a Hillary rally when
my first and I stood up and she said something
great and everybody cheered, and I stood up and cheered,
and all the press were like.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
What are you doing? Sit down? We don't do that here,
And so it's like going inspired.
Speaker 5 (22:21):
I was inspired, And then I realized that we have
to ceed our ability to be inspired as journalists, right,
we have to seed our ability to get you know,
so excited and wrapped up in candidates and certainly covering
Obama's two thousand and eight campaign when you felt this
like ground swell of enthusiasm and part of you was like, oh,
that looks amazing, and I'm sitting in the press, you know,
pin unable to react.
Speaker 4 (22:42):
To any of it.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
And then you know, but certainly there were moments in
my career where it's impossible not to feel the gravity
of the moment. Like in two thousand and eight, I'm
with Obama when the results are coming in, we ride
over to the in the motorcade to Grant Park. I'm
like behind backstage when he's giving his acceptance speech to
become the first black president. It's like, you have this
(23:04):
is really the objectivity debate. It's like are you human?
Like are you getting the chills in this moment? Because
this is incredible? You know, it's incredible to witness history, right,
that's the luxury of being a journalist. We don't get
paid a lot, you know, but we get to witness history.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
I've always thought of journalists, particularly print journalists, as like
first draft historians, and so to be witnessing all that,
I don't know, it just it seems like an incredible experience.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
You must have.
Speaker 5 (23:29):
It is you're like so exhausted, and there's like so
much whining. You know, it's like, what am we gotta
be fed? I need my marriout points, So like there's
all this whiny, Like there's tea. You're so exhausting, I've
and slept in days. Your editors are asking you for
like fifteen different stories and can you have a feed?
And I need some color and you can get some
voter voices, and it's like you really have to stop
(23:49):
and be like this is fucking cool, Like this is amazing,
this is a privilege.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Stay with us. We're back. I'm here with Amy Chosick.
You covered Hillary's twenty sixteen campaign, and you've seen several
women enter presidential races since then. We now even have
a female vice president. How do you think we as
a group look at women in power right now in
(24:17):
twenty twenty four?
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Has it changed?
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Sadly, I don't think it's changed that much.
Speaker 5 (24:22):
And it's really interesting because we started writing this show,
you know a few years ago, and we kept kind
of adjusting it as the world change. And the one
big thing that would have like drastically impacted the show
is well, we have a woman president. You know, it's like, Nope,
that doesn't look like it's going to happen. We're fine,
We're good. A couple things. One thing is I do
think we've evolved a little bit past the Hillary era
(24:43):
and that we've seen a lot of different women run
for president, whether that's all the women that ran in
twenty twenty on the Democratic side or even NICKI Haley.
I think that our only template for a powerful woman
was Hillary, who was very you know, very much qualified
on her own but also seen in the shadow of
her husban. And so we have seen a lot of
women from a lot of different templates that do not
(25:04):
involve you know, rising to fame with being a wife.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
Right, So I think I think.
Speaker 5 (25:09):
That is that has been something that's different and evolved
and positive. Right, We've seen multiple women on the campaigns,
on the debate stage. I remember when Hillary was running
and it was like twenty fifteen and people were talking about, well,
is Elizabeth Warrengan a run, and well, there can't be
two women on the stage and it's going to be
a catfight.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
You know.
Speaker 5 (25:25):
There was just like nobody could even perceive of how
two women would debate each other. So like, even seeing
multiple women on the debate stage in twenty twenty, I
think was really positive. I mean, one of the things
our show does is like is I think it's one
of the first shows to imagine female candidates that very
much aren't in the Hillary template. Right. And of course
there's themes that I learned from from covering Hillary that
(25:50):
work in heavily to the show. But like even the wardrobe,
I was just gonna.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Say, the aesthetic, right, because she had the hair and
the pants suit and it became so such a thing
for women.
Speaker 5 (26:01):
Yeah, So there are things like that that we just
couldn't We can't even envision a woman in power who's
like not dressed like that, and that is essentially that
pants suit look was essentially trying to emulate a man.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Right.
Speaker 5 (26:11):
So I think we've evolved a little, but sadly not
as much as I'd hoped.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
There's this scene where Felicity like burns her brae, which to.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Me felt like the only moment where I was like,
this would never happen.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Yeah, But to that point, do you feel like writing
in these fictional characters, women running for president or in
any sort of power position that are doing things that
seem unbelievable. Now are moving then the narrative forward for
actual candidates to sort of start to step into things
(26:49):
that we haven't seen before.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
I hope.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
So. I mean, I think at its best, TV can
influence culture. BRA burning actually comes from a real situation.
In two thousand and eight, I was with Hillary New
Hampshire and she was doing a rally and all these
guys stood up and started chanting, iron my shirt, Iron
my shirt. I guess it's like this sexist chant and
and she just kind of kept pressing, you know, she
(27:13):
just pressed on with her pole. She just ignored them
and pressed on. And so in my head, I was like,
what if she really leaned into that? What if she
called them out? What if she took off her shirt
and said you fucking hired it? But that was one
of those scenarios were like, instead of creating reality in
the show, create your wish, what do you wish would
have happened? And so like when Felicity like leans into
(27:33):
it and takes off her bra, it's like I could
actually see that.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
You know, they call it the bra bump. She gets
a bump of the poles.
Speaker 5 (27:38):
You know what happens when you actually respond the way
you know you wish you could, that you never really could.
And then the other thing is, like, you know, the
Joanna Gleeson plays Caroline Bennett the front Runner and the Pilot,
and then she flames out, And what I love about
her is that she flames out in her own sex scambal,
not her husband's sex scamble. You know.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
So I agree that, Like, so j wait, like this
threesome cult thing, like it's.
Speaker 5 (28:04):
Totally random, but like it was just fun to envision
of like a boomer woman flaming out because of her
own sex scandal.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
We deserve sex scandals too.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
So for anyone listening who doesn't realize this, the fact
that Amy made the move from reporting to screenwriting as
a career jump is really remarkable because so many journalists
dream of doing that. So I want to talk about
that pivot for a moment. How did that pivot test you?
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (28:30):
God, it definitely did. I mean, I feel like this
has been well for.
Speaker 4 (28:33):
One I don't want to I don't want to give.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
You too long of a response. But I was always
felt like a creative writer. I studied poetry in college.
I like moved to New York no job, no apartment.
I had a stack of clips in the daily text
and thinking I could be a journalist, but like, how
am I going to support myself as a poet. I
didn't have trust fund, you know, no one paying my rent.
So I you know, I got a job, as I
got a tempted a bunch of magazines. I eventually got
(28:56):
a job as the news assistant on the foreign desk
at the Wall Street Journal, and I just fell in
love with journalism.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
I did that for a really long time.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
But when I wrote my book and I got to
kind of write my own voice versus newspaper voice, it
just reminded me that, like, I really want to be
a creative writer. So in a way, transitioning to screenwriting
felt like my soul had come alive. Like I could
be like creative again. I could play with my imaginary friends.
So I say, but yeah, it was like it was
a real endurance. It's like an endurance sport. I mean,
(29:26):
this has taken five years and three networks, you know.
It was it was so many rewrites, rewriting the scripts
until you think you can't possibly rewrite anymore, and just
continuing to find joy. And you know, surprise in these
characters we created, even when you have so many rounds
of notes and so many challenges. So it's not it
(29:49):
wasn't an easy thing. But I've really really loved it.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Was it worth it?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
It was?
Speaker 5 (29:53):
It was worth it. Yes, it was worth it to
put this. I'm really proud of what we put out
in the world. I mean, to your point we were
talking earlier, is like that we got to envision this
world as we as we wish it would be.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Yeah, I think it was. I think it was worth it.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
I moved my whole I relocated my whole family to
Los Angeles.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
My husband's Irish.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
He still thinks it's relentlessly sunny here big swings.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
To move your whole family's.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Bag, Yeah, I feel like you have to go like
all in, you know. But it was hard.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
It was hard to leave the New York Times too,
and my whole kind of identity was wrapped up in
being a Times reporter.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yeah. Have you found a new placeholder for that identity,
like a new title or are you good with sort
of the undefined role?
Speaker 4 (30:37):
It's interesting.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
I feel like here I just live much more of
a writer's life, you know, I don't necessarily need to
be like define in a way. I felt like I
did there, maybe because New York is just New York,
or or because you're always going into rooms and be
like I'm with the New York Times, you know, and
I feel like here, I just like really enjoy, you know,
playing with my imaginary friends and moving words on the page.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
And Amy, Yeah, this must be so liberating for you
as a creative to be able to live in this playground.
I mean, coming from the newspaper world, from journalism where
you're held to such tight and high standards, You're free now.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
It was.
Speaker 5 (31:17):
There were definitely scenes that were really cathartic. There's a
scene at the end when Sadie has a conversation with
Felicity Walker that is like a conversation that I've had
in my head for eight years. I have to say
I was really a peak life experience to be able
to turn something that was painful into art. And I
know it's make a TV, but I'm still gonna call
(31:37):
it art man, And that was really cathartic. It was, Amy,
Thank you so much, so fun to talk to you,
and I'm so thrilled of you.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Like the show.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
We love it heay.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Amy Chosick is a journalist, screenwriter, and creator of the
new TV series The Girls on the Bus. It's streaming
now on Max, so catch the season finale on May nine.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
I promise you you won't regret it.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Hopefully the listeners can feel the energy in the room
because it was really electric.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Well, it's so fun to sit with another journalist, right, Like,
we get into the x's and o's and shared experiences
and differences.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
It's fun.
Speaker 3 (32:20):
But I could tell that you are really interested in
people's transitions. And I like that question you asked her
at the end about was it all worth it?
Speaker 4 (32:32):
Totally?
Speaker 2 (32:32):
And I gained a lot from hearing Amy talk about
hers I love that she did say, yes, this pivot
was worth it. In the end, you can tell that
she just has this renewed purpose now that she's on
this different career path. She said that her soul really
came alive becoming a screenwriter and transitioning out of journalism.
(32:52):
And also what she's doing is really powerful. She is
creating the world that she wants to see through her art.
Mm hmmm, that's it for today's show, Folks. Tomorrow, comedian
Mary Beth Baron is here. She's redefining comedy on her
own terms, and she shared some of her most provoking thoughts.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Plus, we're asking for a friend that's right. We want
to know your questions. Do you have a friendship situation
you need a little extra guidance with Send us a
voice note to Hello at the brightsidepodcast dot com and
one of our bright Side busties is gonna help you out.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Listen and follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can
find me simone Voice on Instagram and TikTok and.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
I'm Danielle Robe at Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
That's ro Bay.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
We'll see you back here tomorrow. Keep looking on the
bright side.
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